00;00;00;00 - 00;00;29;18 Kelly Day The whole point of this fellowship is to provide opportunities for teachers to learn about what governmental programs are out there. There's so many resources out there that I had zero knowledge of before I came into this world of aid. And the goal is to give them that bag of resources for them to take back to their classroom, back to their fellow teachers, back to their communities and say, hey, I had this incredible opportunity. 00;00;29;25 - 00;00;43;20 Kelly Day I was lead on the most amazing experience of my life harnessed by this fellowship. I got to be in spaces and be the voice of teachers. Now I get to come back and enrich my own students. 00;00;43;20 - 00;01;14;01 Narrator This is the ORISE Feature cast. Join host Michael Holtz for Conversations with ORISE. Experts on STEM, workforce development, scientific and technical reviews, and the evaluation of radiation exposure and environmental contamination. You'll also hear from ORISE Research program participants and their mentors as they talk about their experiences and how they are helping shape the future of science. Welcome to the ORISE Feature Cast. 00;01;14;03 - 00;01;39;00 Michael Holtz Welcome to the ORISE Feature Cast. As ever, it's me, your host, Michael Holtz, in the communications and marketing department at the Oak Ridge Institute for Science in Education. And if you're a listener to this podcast and a relatively recent listener, you know, today we were talking about one of my favorite programs, the Albert Einstein Distinguished Educator Fellowship Program. 00;01;39;02 - 00;01;48;17 Michael Holtz And I have a panel of guests with me today. I have four people. I'm going to let them introduce yourselves. And Amy, I'm going to start with you. 00;01;48;19 - 00;02;08;06 Amy Szczepanski Hey. Yeah, I'm Amy Szczpanski, I am originally from Detroit, and then I moved to New York City about seven or eight years ago. And I am and Albert Einstein, fellow this year with the Department of Energy, previously a science teacher. 00;02;08;08 - 00;02;12;10 Michael Holtz Excellent. Gretel, please introduce yourselves. 00;02;12;12 - 00;02;31;20 Gretel von Bargen I am Gretel von Bargen, I teach international baccalaureate biology in a suburb of Seattle, and I love teaching biology. Been doing it for about 20 plus years. And I was an Einstein fellow in 2017 and 18 at the Department of Energy. 00;02;31;22 - 00;02;36;01 Michael Holtz Awesome. Pascale, welcome. 00;02;36;03 - 00;02;58;29 Pascale Creek Pinner All right. Aloha, everybody. I am a middle school science teacher and an SS curriculum co-ordinator here on the big island of Hawaii. I now, or this is my 36 years of teaching middle school, and I was an Einstein fellow at the Department of Energy 2018 2019. 00;02;59;01 - 00;03;03;13 Michael Holtz Awesome. And Kelly Day, tell us who you are. 00;03;03;15 - 00;03;18;19 Kelly Day Hi, I'm Kelly Day. I am was a seventh grade math teacher from Indiana and I was the Einstein fellow at the Department of Energy and 2020 2021 area. 00;03;18;21 - 00;03;37;16 Michael Holtz Yeah awesome. And Kelly, you are now with the Albert Einstein Fellowship program. So tell me, if you would, just for folks who may not have heard my beautiful conversations with Jill before. What is the Albert Einstein Distinguished Fellowship program? 00;03;37;18 - 00;04;08;25 Kelly Day It is a program that takes the country's best STEM educators and plugs them in a governmental agency for an 11 month placement where they get to work on education policy and initiatives and programs. There's also some fellows that are placed in congressional Hill placements and get to work for a congressional office for that time. And so I have a very, very unique opportunity to have been a teacher then and then selected to be an Einstein fellow. 00;04;08;25 - 00;04;34;00 Kelly Day And now I get to work with the program through the Department of Energy cell, which is very, very unique. But I'm very happy to be here with these other Department of Energy fellows, because between you and me, it's the best placement. I think personally. And it's just it's such a great program and it's managed by the wonderful Jill Lachana, who's on here with us today. 00;04;34;03 - 00;04;42;24 Kelly Day And so I am so thankful for every opportunity to meet these incredible, incredible educators from across the country. 00;04;42;26 - 00;05;12;22 Michael Holtz Awesome. And, Amy, you and I are sort of doing co-hosting duty today, which I'm really excited about, But I want to get the ball rolling with a first question about making the transition from the classroom to the fellowship and then back to the classroom. What was that like for you? Pascale and Gretel, I’ll start with the two of you. 00;05;12;24 - 00;05;14;02 Pascale Creek Pinner Gretel, you want to join us? 00;05;14;04 - 00;05;43;06 Gretel von Bargen Sure. I loved being an Einstein fellow. But I did miss classroom teaching a lot when I was in Washington, D.C. And so for me, being an Einstein fellow helped reiterate my commitment and passion for being in the classroom. And it came at a time in my career when, you know, I'd been teaching for 15 or 16 years at that point, and I wasn't sure whether it was going to be my continuing path or if I was going to find a new way. 00;05;43;08 - 00;06;08;12 Gretel von Bargen But being out of the classroom as a fellow help to reiterate how much I love classroom teaching. And so for me, I was excited to return to my classroom. And I was fortunate enough that my school district was super supportive of me being an Einstein fellow and maintained my specific job position for me. So I was able to leave the classroom and return to the exact same classroom, exact same teaching role. 00;06;08;14 - 00;06;16;21 Gretel von Bargen And so I was pretty lucky in that regard. That was, from what I understand, not a not a common scenario for a lot of people. 00;06;16;23 - 00;06;21;04 Michael Holtz Gotcha. How about you. Pascale? 00;06;21;06 - 00;06;52;13 Pascale Creek Pinner I would probably echo the fact that Gretel said I really, really enjoyed the opportunity to move the entire continental United States completely different foreign location. For me, I grew up in Hawaii and so D.C. was was novel, but I was able to participate in as an Einstein. Jan Tyler said, you know, get out there and do that. 00;06;52;13 - 00;07;21;23 Pascale Creek Pinner Check out everything and, you know, go and explore and participate. And I'm really glad I did because I knew just like Gretel, I wanted to go back into the classroom. That was without hesitation that I knew that I was going to be doing that. And so when I came back to Hawaii, you know, I also landed. And of course, that year was the year where the COVID shutdown happened in fourth quarter. 00;07;21;29 - 00;07;41;20 Pascale Creek Pinner So it was a really strange year. But prior to that, just being back in the classroom with all this new knowledge and energy that I had gathered from the experience, I think bolstered me to just, you know, consider, all right, my next decade in education. So it was a really, really valuable experience. 00;07;41;22 - 00;07;51;05 Michael Holtz And, Amy, I know you are still in the midst of your fellowship. What do you hope to take back to the classroom? 00;07;51;07 - 00;08;17;20 Amy Szczepanski gosh. I hope I take back this sense of clarity that Gretel and Pascale are talking a lot about. I know we'll probably get here, but I was drawn to the Einstein Fellowship because I was and still am, kind of at a crossroads in teaching. I've been teaching for about ten years now, and very similar to what both Gretel and Pascale were saying is, I don't really know what the next step is. 00;08;17;27 - 00;08;39;08 Amy Szczepanski I'm not committed to leaving the classroom and saying like, Yes, what's the next thing? But I'm also not fully committed to going back. So what I'm looking forward is not a specific thing, but more in this amorphous kind of mental clarity that I'm hoping at some point just rained down from the sky on me. I'm still getting for that mental clarity to come. 00;08;39;11 - 00;08;46;07 Amy Szczepanski But hopefully by July when the fellowship is over, I have some clarity on what that is. 00;08;46;09 - 00;08;50;04 Michael Holtz There'll be a sign or something that said absolutely. 00;08;50;06 - 00;08;59;13 Amy Szczepanski Maybe like an actual physical sign that says, like Amy, can Nancy please work here? I'll take as clear as I can get. 00;08;59;16 - 00;09;30;16 Pascale Creek Pinner If you've done that yet, Amy. But I think one thing that was pivotal to that clarity and that defining moment came later in the fellowship when we all worked with Jill individually on our on our resumes surveys or vitae, etc.. And those conversation for me were the ones that supported these big giant, broad ideas that I had that I wanted to take back and do, even though I was also still going to be going back to the classroom. 00;09;30;16 - 00;09;39;22 Pascale Creek Pinner So I suspect that that time is coming for you and that Jill will facilitate that time. She did a really good job with me, with that. 00;09;39;24 - 00;09;43;27 Michael Holtz I see nodding heads from Gretel and Kelly both. So Gretel. 00;09;43;29 - 00;10;18;00 Gretel von Bargen I would add that in my case, I always knew I wanted to return to the classroom. And so for me, I didn't. I, being an Einstein fellow, helped reiterate that decision. But during the interview process, I was actually concerned because so many of the alumni and or people who were part of the group that was there in the interview weekend had left classroom teaching after being an Einstein fellow, and that rose red flags for me because I was not I don't I didn't want to leave classroom. 00;10;18;03 - 00;10;47;27 Gretel von Bargen And so for me, I asked during my interview what is going on? Why is everyone leaving after this fellowship? Because that if that's what's happening, I'm out. I don't want that. And it was very much reiterated in the interview that the Einstein Fellowship is not designed to transition people out of classroom teaching. Some people do leave the classroom after their fellowship, but that's not the intent of the Einstein Fellowship. 00;10;47;27 - 00;11;02;14 Gretel von Bargen The intent is to bring educators, have educators work on their professional growth, explore opportunities, learn information that they can then take back to their classroom. And that's exactly what I got out of it. 00;11;02;16 - 00;11;09;23 Michael Holtz Awesome. KELLY talk more about that because I'm again, I'm seeing you shake your head, but nod nod your head a lot. 00;11;09;26 - 00;11;10;14 Kelly Day Yeah. 00;11;10;20 - 00;11;14;05 Michael Holtz Response to what Gretel and Pascale are saying. 00;11;14;08 - 00;11;46;24 Kelly Day Well, I think that that's the the whole point of this fellowship is to provide opportunities for teachers to learn about what governmental programs are out there. There's so many resources out there that I had zero knowledge of before I came into this world of AEF. And the goal is to give them that bag of resources for them to take back to their classroom, back to their fellow teachers, back to their communities and say, hey, I had this incredible opportunity. 00;11;47;00 - 00;12;16;17 Kelly Day I was led on the most amazing experience of my life harnessed by this fellowship. I got to be in spaces and be the voice of teachers. And now I get to come back and enrich my own students and enrich the teachers in my school and beyond. And so that, to me, is the heart of the program. And I would love it if all of our teachers went back. 00;12;16;20 - 00;12;42;09 Kelly Day I know, though, like I am a teacher who didn't go back, but that was completely unexpected. I was in Gretel shoe shoes. I was like, I am doing this for a year and then I'm going back. I never expected for the journey to end where it did. However, that it happens sometimes when you kind of when you see something, you can't unsee it. 00;12;42;10 - 00;12;55;06 Kelly Day So there's, you know, that opportunity sometimes presents itself. But I do think that the heart of this whole program is to enrich teachers lives so that it can get back to students. 00;12;55;09 - 00;13;01;23 Michael Holtz Awesome. Amy, do you want to tee up the next question? 00;13;01;25 - 00;13;30;24 Amy Szczepanski Yeah, for sure. I'm looking at some of the questions that we kind of have on the docket and I want to know. So as we previously mentioned at the beginning of this, I'm a DOE fellow right now, and I'm having like this wild and crazy experience where every day is an adventure. And I would love to hear more about Gretel and Pascale and Kelly as well. 00;13;30;24 - 00;14;06;10 Amy Szczepanski Kelly, you're just a more recent. Not that I'm not equally as interested, but I would like to hear what your experiences were like working at the Department of Energy. What were you doing on a daily basis? What were you seeing? What was like? What was really getting you going? I'll start. I took it took me some time to transition to the time that was available for me to work on my own professional development. 00;14;06;13 - 00;14;38;05 Gretel von Bargen I obviously had some DIY projects that I was working on, but as a taskmaster and to do list checker, I would get that work done and then I would have all this time to like, invest in what I wanted to do or learn about. And I used it and it was so after that transition of recognizing, I can fill this time, I would fill my time with exploring the museums and the Library of Congress. 00;14;38;05 - 00;15;08;12 Gretel von Bargen And I was a big fan of the National Botanical Gardens and I would explore these places. Keeping in mind I was returning to the classroom, looking for ways I could connect what I was learning personally, but also how I could bring that back to my students. So I worked a lot on curriculum development and curriculum kind of enhancement so that I could bring back what I was learning to the to the classroom. 00;15;08;14 - 00;15;30;01 Pascale Creek Pinner And again, I would echo what Gretel had to say. I felt the same way coming from a full time classroom position where you've got five periods a day. Boom, boom, boom, boom, recess, lunch after school meetings. It was very strange coming into a job after 30 plus years of, okay, so your time is your own. Go to it. 00;15;30;07 - 00;15;50;01 Pascale Creek Pinner Here's the big projects you need to do. But then there's the rest of this time. So I did very much the same thing. I did a lot of a lot of exploring different kinds of curriculum things because I knew that was coming up for us here in Hawaii. The implementation and adoption of the NGSS and specifically middle school curriculum. 00;15;50;03 - 00;16;21;12 Pascale Creek Pinner And then I also, you know, I went to Alexandria and went to the patent office and went to workshops at all kinds of workshops actually at the Library of Congress. And yeah, went to panel meetings for the National Science not National Science Foundation, but the National Academy. And so super informative. I think though, one of the biggest, really huge AHA's that I ended up having, I visited, I think, five different national labs. 00;16;21;12 - 00;16;41;20 Pascale Creek Pinner And on one of the visits, I got connected with somebody at Los Alamos. And then Jan came to me and said, All right, Pascale, so I have this opportunity. Do you want to go to New Mexico and work with this nuclear physicist just for her summer physics camp? And I just looked at her, went what? okay, talk about my background. 00;16;41;20 - 00;17;11;26 Pascale Creek Pinner But all right. And I did it well to this day. I now do that camp in partnership with her, and we're finally kind of come to the ultimate dream that we both had after that year, which was to bring Hawaii girls to New Mexico to participate in the camp lives. So in the interim, Hawaii has been a partner with Los Alamos lab and now Sandia and Los Alamos to do this young women's physics camp. 00;17;11;29 - 00;17;35;00 Pascale Creek Pinner And that would not have been available. I would never have known about it. I would never have known about the internships available through the, you know, the labs, etc.. None of that I would never have known. And it really gave me the impetus to come back to Hawaii and bring that knowledge back for my community, not just young women, but all of our students, that there's these amazing opportunities out there that they don't even know about. 00;17;35;03 - 00;17;45;11 Pascale Creek Pinner So a lot of my day today was really just developing all those connections and then the curriculum. 00;17;45;13 - 00;17;49;07 Michael Holtz Very cool. So, Kelly, you want to add? 00;17;49;09 - 00;18;13;10 Kelly Day Yeah, I just think that's so cool that you started this kind of journey as a fellow and it just leads beyond. And I think so many fellows have those stories of just again, kind of what I said before, once you're like aware of these opportunities, it's you can't unlearn what you now know and what an amazing platform to kind of springboard. 00;18;13;17 - 00;18;42;12 Kelly Day Even if you go back to the classroom, you have you still have all of these things presented to you. I know for me when I came in, I knew very little about the Department of Energy. I don't know about you two. I was a seventh grade math teacher, so science wasn't really part of my curriculum. And in fact, when I applied, there was I thought originally, there's no way in the world I'm going to end up at the Department of Energy. 00;18;42;12 - 00;19;05;13 Kelly Day I am not a nuclear physicist. All I knew about the DOE was like the Manhattan Project, which was so outside of my realm of any expertise or knowledge. And so but you enter into this space and you realize, the DOE has all of these labs and all of these scientific discoveries, and there's the whole Office of Science, which I hadn't heard of before ever. 00;19;05;16 - 00;19;17;22 Kelly Day And I think it's really cool that you got to visit so many labs. Gretel Did you get to visit any of the labs? I did. I went to two. I went to Brookhaven and Pacific Northwest. 00;19;17;25 - 00;19;19;08 Pascale Creek Pinner Nice. 00;19;19;11 - 00;19;20;22 Pascale Creek Pinner Nice. 00;19;20;24 - 00;19;47;10 Michael Holtz So what for Gretel and Pascale? Well, I mean, you see, like, what is it? So I know that applying for this fellowship is a relatively arduous process, Right? What is it about the Albert Einstein Distinguished Educator Fellowship that drew you? And after you were in the process? And you know, what is it about that was like, I need to be part of this? 00;19;47;13 - 00;19;49;25 Michael Holtz What was that thing? 00;19;49;27 - 00;20;12;01 Pascale Creek Pinner I had a former fellow who was also a teacher of the year, the same year I was the teacher of the year, and she emailed me and said, You must apply for this with. And yeah, but she's like, No, not yet, but you are a shoo in. You need to do this. And so she actually was very supportive through the application process. 00;20;12;04 - 00;20;21;29 Pascale Creek Pinner Yeah. So a former fellow who just happened to be a colleague in a different networks that was got a. 00;20;22;01 - 00;20;45;11 Gretel von Bargen I was the exact opposite. I didn't know anyone or have any connection at all. I just liked the challenge of it and the opportunity for an adventure. I want to keep learning and try new things and I like the idea of bringing my family out and having a year of, you know, trying something new and learning new stuff. 00;20;45;13 - 00;20;51;05 Kelly Day And I knew it would be hard. And so I thought, I'll, I'll try. And then it worked. 00;20;51;10 - 00;20;55;23 Michael Holtz So, Amy how about for you? 00;20;55;25 - 00;21;26;11 Amy Szczepanski yeah. My, my experience was similar to Gretel, so I knew nothing about the fellowship. One of my college roommates actually messaged me. He is an astrophysicist and he was like looking for science jobs. And he came across this and he's like, dang, I'm not qualified. But I think Amy is. So he sent me this email and the application was due like a week later or something and said, Okay, well, maybe not this year. 00;21;26;11 - 00;21;44;27 Amy Szczepanski And I set a reminder in my Gmail to apply for the next year, and I had almost forgotten about it. And then the email came from myself to apply to this thing, which I was like, yeah, that thing. So I started applying. And then similar to what Greta was saying, I was like, my gosh, is it like pretty intense? 00;21;44;29 - 00;22;03;14 Amy Szczepanski And so it almost became like a challenge. Growing up. My dad gave me this really awesome advice of like, win the opportunity and you be the one to say no. So I'm like, okay, I might as well apply. And then I applied and I got to ask for an interview and I'm like, Well, might as well go to the interview. 00;22;03;15 - 00;22;27;01 Amy Szczepanski Like if something else happens, like I can be the one to say no. And then when this leads me to another question, I want to ask all of you, too. But when I was told that I was accepted, I was 100% convinced that there had been a mistake. I was like, No, this I can't be accurate. There's no way all of these people are wildly qualified. 00;22;27;06 - 00;22;44;03 Amy Szczepanski This has to be a mistake. We were told that when you get accepted, there's going to be a call and like you have to be ready to get the call. And for some reason, I never found out like why this happened, but I never got the call. I only got an email. So I was convinced this was a mistake. 00;22;44;05 - 00;23;03;25 Amy Szczepanski They meant to send this to you like an Ann Smith instead of an Amy Szczepanski or something. So I emailed the fellowship saying, Can you please confirm this is true? If so, I accepted. But I also don't want to embarrass myself by saying, yeah, for sure, and them saying, actually, like my bad, I didn't mean we. 00;23;03;27 - 00;23;05;22 Michael Holtz We meant that for someone else. 00;23;05;22 - 00;23;11;22 Kelly Day Yeah. Other Szczepanski on the list. Yeah. The other Szczepanski who's. 00;23;11;27 - 00;23;14;14 Michael Holtz Right, right. 00;23;14;16 - 00;23;50;20 Amy Szczepanski So that would lead me to my question of what was the process like for all of you when you applied and eventually were accepted into the fellowship? Was it kind of disbelief like me, or were you feeling very confident? Yeah. I love to hear you all talk a little bit about that. That's hilarious. That story right away. I heard I was I was pleasantly honored and so and surprised that I had been selected. 00;23;50;22 - 00;24;25;09 Gretel von Bargen I was a little bit more of like surprise. And I told my husband and he was just like, Well, yeah, of course. That's so for me, it's like, okay. There wasn't a lot of like, surprises on his part, but on my part I was pleasantly surprised and I was actually classroom teaching in this room when I got the phone call that I had been selected and I stepped on to the hall, unsure and came back in and couldn't tell anyone at that time because it's like pretend nothing ever happened and just keep on teaching. 00;24;25;12 - 00;24;29;17 Michael Holtz Everything's fine, it's fine, everything's fine. 00;24;29;20 - 00;24;59;10 Kelly Day Yeah. So I have a signing the day that I got the call that I was going to be an Einstein Fellow of the Year was March 11th of 2020. And I don't know if you know what else was happening that year. During that particular week, but I got called right at the time where we were having the students clean out their lockers because we were sending them home that day for maybe a week. 00;24;59;16 - 00;25;16;07 Kelly Day But go ahead and take all of your stuff home just in case. And the kids are cleaning out their lockers and I get this call to be on the fellowship and I start crying and one of the kids comes up to me and is like, It's okay. Miss Day will be back soon. And I was like, yeah. 00;25;16;10 - 00;25;40;28 Kelly Day And I'm like, in my head, like, I there's just so many emotions going on right now. I don't even know what to react to. But little did I know that that was going to be the last day of teaching for me, which makes some of that feel very unfinished and hard because we that year was unfinished, felt unfinished. 00;25;41;01 - 00;26;05;05 Kelly Day And then I went into the fellowship and I didn't go back to the classroom. And for someone who loved teaching as much as I do and did, it's been very weird transition to not have that anymore. Not to say, you know, anyways, so but, but that was my story of like, wait, the world shutting down and I'm going to be moving to DC next year. 00;26;05;06 - 00;26;10;00 Michael Holtz Maybe that's if the program happens at all during the pandemic. 00;26;10;00 - 00;26;42;27 Kelly Day I mean, yeah, there was not even any of that. And so, and also it was so I had applied the year before, okay, I didn't get it. And so I'm like the poster child for like, try, try again. Like if at first you don't succeed my, but my first year I, I applied and I said I was only interested in congressional positions because again, kind of what I had said earlier, I couldn't conceive what I could contribute to like NASA or the Department of Energy or any of these established organizations. 00;26;42;27 - 00;27;22;15 Kelly Day But I was like, I am not smart enough to be in those spaces. And I cut myself short because I couldn't. I also didn't understand that they had education programs. All of these all of these federal agencies. And so I kind of understood what Congress did, and I was like, Well, I might be smart enough to help out there, but I got into the interview system and I heard about, like the Department of Energy, and I think I was talking to Pascale, who's on here, and she was telling me about all the cool things that she was working on at the Department of Energy, like the Science Bowl, which is now like my entire life. 00;27;22;17 - 00;27;43;18 Kelly Day And I just was like, Well, I can do that. Like what? Like I want to be a part of that. And I remember thinking that first time, like, I kind of hope I don't get this so I can reapply to be in a spot that's actually more perfect for me than on the Hill. So. So anyways, that's a long story. 00;27;43;18 - 00;28;10;16 Kelly Day I did not mean to go on that tangent, but when I got that call the second time, I was expecting to not get it again. And then I was called the week of like, you know, all of this the world. I want to say something about what you were mentioning, Kelly, that I think was so, so important that I remember Jill saying this at the interview weekend that really stuck with me. 00;28;10;19 - 00;28;32;13 Amy Szczepanski I had a similar feeling of like, I don't really know what I have to offer to the Department of Energy. Like maybe I could have like have some things to offer for like USGS or Congress or something. But Jill had this really great kind of idea where she said, If you've gotten to this point, all of you are definitely qualified. 00;28;32;14 - 00;28;54;20 Amy Szczepanski If you are not accepted, it's just because there's not a good match for you. And I thought, like, how is the Department of Energy ever going to be a match for me? But after going through it for a couple of months now, but even after a few weeks, I started thinking like, this is the actually the exact placement for me. 00;28;54;22 - 00;29;25;08 Amy Szczepanski If I was, you know, interviewing for another place, I don't think I would have been as good of a match. So for anyone who's potentially interested in applying, I know it sounds kind of cliche, but trust the process. There's a reason that you are being matched with certain agencies. Just wanted to add that in there because that was something that I still think about on a weekly basis. 00;29;25;10 - 00;29;48;25 Pascale Creek Pinner Yeah, and for me, when I flew to the interview weekend to DC that first morning I discovered that there was another person from Hawaii here and I was like, no, they're never going to choose two people from Hawaii, they're only going to choose one. And then I found out that I was going to have three different interviews and I was even more nervous because of that. 00;29;48;25 - 00;30;11;16 Pascale Creek Pinner I felt like, my gosh. And so ironically, my last interview was on the Tuesday. So everybody left on Monday. And here I am schlepping it from the hotel Tuesday morning, and I get there really, really early. And Beth isn't there. Nobody's there. I'm like, my God, I'm at the Department of Energy Building. And then finally Gretel showed up with Jennifer and they're like, it'll be fine. 00;30;11;16 - 00;30;31;15 Pascale Creek Pinner You know, I'm full. And then after that interview, I had to get on a plane and leave and go back. And so, honestly, like, I did not expect that I just was like, okay. And then I got the phone call at 2:30 a.m. in the morning because the time does not change for people in Hawaii, period. And so that's what's like. 00;30;31;15 - 00;30;53;15 Pascale Creek Pinner And I will be calling at. And she absolutely did. And so anyway, and then I had then I had an opportunity where I got to choose. So I had two offers and right at that moment in time, I just felt like, you know what, the Department of Energy is, is is the one for me. And I didn't know if it was going to be the one, to be honest with you. 00;30;53;15 - 00;31;24;04 Pascale Creek Pinner I felt a little intimidated by it, but especially coming from middle school. And so, yeah, it was just like a flash and boom, okay, Department of Energy it is. And then everything just move forward from there. Moving across the country, I could not fly across the country to come and look at apartments or anything. And so I, I did some research online, found what I wanted, and then had the the resident manager person go upstairs to the apartment with their phone. 00;31;24;11 - 00;31;41;16 Pascale Creek Pinner And I said, I just need to know what's outside the windows. I don't care about the apartment. I need to know what I can see outside the windows. And and it has an indoor pool because I need to be in the water every day. And so basically she was like, okay. So she went upstairs and took, you know, took her phone. 00;31;41;16 - 00;32;02;12 Pascale Creek Pinner And here we are at a six hour time difference. And I'm like, okay. So I rented it sight unseen, moved to DC. You know, and had to venture install furniture for me. I was in Hawaii and they were calling me at I don't even remember 5:00 in the morning, where did you want this? And they didn't even realize they were talking to somebody in Hawaii. 00;32;02;12 - 00;32;28;07 Pascale Creek Pinner Right. And I just said, okay, you know, give them some directions. And they put furniture where I thought it should be based on what I had seen in the camera phone. And yeah, and then arrived in D.C. So the process I think was was really revealing And I agree with you, Amy, about what Jill said. You know, we all start that fellowship, I think, with imposter syndrome. 00;32;28;10 - 00;32;58;15 Pascale Creek Pinner And as the fellowship goes along, we gain confidence in our different roles and basically kind of slough off that imposter syndrome and become comfortable in the in the role or AEF role that we are becoming and have landed in. And that's all about growth. So it was it's really a process that is pretty phenomenal, like beyond national board certification, etc., which is very reflective and phenomenal. 00;32;58;15 - 00;33;03;02 Pascale Creek Pinner This was like way beyond that. 00;33;03;05 - 00;33;20;11 Michael Holtz What do you guys think drives the the imposter syndrome that you feel at the beginning? Is it I'm only a teacher. Is it? And I mean, I know how important teachers are, but is it you know, I'm just the teacher. I don't deserve to be here, you know. 00;33;20;13 - 00;33;45;15 Pascale Creek Pinner You know, interesting enough, one of the fellows that was the same year, me, Kelly Taylor, she is a a STEM resource teacher in an elementary school. And she has her her doctorate, her EDD, And she said, it's really funny to me because I have my Ph.D. but in Hawaii, you know, it's all about shame. It's not about, you know, honor, you know, I'm this and I'm that. 00;33;45;15 - 00;34;05;25 Pascale Creek Pinner It's actually the opposite. And so anyway, at one point she goes, Pascale, you need to be proud of who you are as a teacher. You worked hard for that doctorate. You know, my kids call me Dr. Taylor, even the kindergartners. And I was like, really? And I thought, wow. And that just completely clicked my mind frame like, Click. 00;34;05;27 - 00;34;20;08 Pascale Creek Pinner You did work hard to do this. You did work hard to get here, and you deserve to be where you are right now doing what you're doing. So now, consequently, my students know me as Mrs. Dr. P, which is my. 00;34;20;11 - 00;34;21;23 Michael Holtz I love it. 00;34;21;25 - 00;34;47;17 Gretel von Bargen I would say for me it's just the uncertainty about what I should be doing and wanting to make sure I was doing enough. And it's not at all the sense of I'm quote unquote, just a teacher because I don't feel that at all. I feel like teaching is probably the most important job I could be doing. But it is when you get there. 00;34;47;17 - 00;35;15;26 Gretel von Bargen It's so different from the day to day of classroom teaching that it's just the uncertainty of am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? And is it enough for what you want for me and from what I want out of this situation? And then once I came to terms with I'm just doing everything I'm supposed to be doing and it is enough and I'm going to take advantage of everything else, then, you know, I sloughed off any uncertainty and just owned the time. 00;35;15;28 - 00;35;29;27 Michael Holtz Awesome is right because you get sort of disconnect that well you do get disconnected from sort of a hamster wheel of I got to do lesson plans and I've got a great papers and I've got it, you know, so you're always doing something, whereas. 00;35;30;00 - 00;35;30;10 Gretel von Bargen You have. 00;35;30;16 - 00;35;34;00 Michael Holtz The opportunity to start right and. 00;35;34;02 - 00;35;58;25 Gretel von Bargen You have to be a person, at least for the day placement. You have to be a person who can own your own destiny of time. And if you're a person who is going to need micromanagement, this is not the right placement because you have to be able to use your time productively for what you think it's going to be best utilized. 00;35;58;27 - 00;36;14;27 Gretel von Bargen And that can be uncomfortable for a lot of people who are used to to serving a function and then getting you know, recognized for it. And so it's just uncomfortable at first to recognize that you're working for. 00;36;14;29 - 00;36;17;00 Gretel von Bargen You know. 00;36;17;02 - 00;36;19;06 Michael Holtz Gotcha. 00;36;19;08 - 00;36;48;27 Kelly Day I just wanted to say, like Gretel, you just blew my mind of putting words to something that I haven't been able to recognize before with that question that Michael gave. I was like, Why do we feel this imposter syndrome? I never thought about that connection of it has to do with us feeling like we're contributing enough. And it also that is connected to the culture of education, where we are asked to contribute more sometimes than is physically possible. 00;36;49;00 - 00;37;26;29 Kelly Day And so we're constantly we're just working, working, working, working, and it feels like it's never enough. And then you move into this new space and you do what is asked of you and it is enough. And you're suddenly like, Wait, what? Like, No, I should be doing more. I should be doing faster, I should, you know, and having that freedom and to not be set by those like the limitations of a bell schedule telling us, okay, time to do the next thing and do the next thing is terrifying and kind of stifling to some of the teachers who enter into this arena. 00;37;27;01 - 00;37;47;04 Kelly Day But as time goes on, you start to learn your own worth and you see what you can contribute and you see how valued even what you think is like a little contribution. Because when you're comparing it to the mountain that you typically have to contribute, you're like, Wait, I just did this little thing and you guys are thinking like, it's the most brilliant. 00;37;47;06 - 00;37;55;07 Kelly Day You know, it's it's fascinating. I don't. Did you guys get to do an inter-agency working group while you were fellows? 00;37;55;10 - 00;37;56;23 Pascale Creek Pinner Kind of. 00;37;56;26 - 00;37;57;17 Kelly Day Kind of. 00;37;57;24 - 00;38;07;03 Pascale Creek Pinner Kind of, Yeah, kind of. But not really. Sort of. Maybe the beginnings of that. It was like just the beginning of those conversations. 00;38;07;05 - 00;38;28;17 Kelly Day And I aways I was part of an interagency working group, and I feel like I contributed, I contributed a lot. And it was a wonderful space to be in. But a time what what would a bit like it? It was amazing to people in the federal space what I was able to produce in a short amount of time. 00;38;28;19 - 00;38;32;22 Kelly Day We'll just put it that way. 00;38;32;25 - 00;38;48;21 Pascale Creek Pinner Yeah, they underestimate teachers. We you know, when we talk about multitasking, we are the kings and queens of that in the universe of time. I tell you. And yeah, being able to just produce this that, this, that, this said what? I still have three more hours. okay. Well let me see what else I can do. 00;38;48;21 - 00;39;04;09 Kelly Day The record like I think I remember. They're like, Can you do this? And I did it in a week and they were like, we were expecting a timeline of like three months. And I was like, like when teachers are asked to do something, it's like usually by the end of the school day, like. 00;39;04;11 - 00;39;07;04 Michael Holtz I need it yesterday. Thank you very much. Yeah. 00;39;07;08 - 00;39;12;06 Pascale Creek Pinner Yeah. That happens a lot actually. 00;39;12;09 - 00;39;20;20 Michael Holtz It's all of you sort of going in the Wayback Machine. What are you interested in being educators in the first place? 00;39;20;23 - 00;39;23;08 Amy Szczepanski I was never interested in being an educator. 00;39;23;11 - 00;39;25;27 Michael Holtz Okay? 00;39;25;29 - 00;40;00;19 Amy Szczepanski You know, I felt like I got sucked into the black hole of education. I feel like, in a delightful way, I hope. yeah, Yeah. I mean, and maybe that's why I ended up in it, because I kept trying to veer from the path and always getting brought back to the path. I, I, I did my undergrad at Wayne State University in Detroit, the greatest university ever. 00;40;00;21 - 00;40;35;11 Amy Szczepanski And I had I majored in biology in environmental science. And my plan was to go get a Ph.D. And while I was in college, I was working in a bunch of research labs and I was also doing this thing called supplemental instruction. So essentially acting as like a pseudo kind of T.A. And I found myself really getting excited to go do the supplemental instruction piece and then not being super excited to go to the lab. 00;40;35;13 - 00;40;57;07 Amy Szczepanski And it was actually one of my students who said to me, like, Hey, Amy, what are you going to do when you graduate? And I said, Well, I think I want to go get a Ph.D.. And she said to me, Well, you've been really great at this. I think you'd be a really good teacher. And kind of serendipitously, that same day, I got an email from the Woodrow Wilson Teaching Fellowship. 00;40;57;10 - 00;41;23;19 Amy Szczepanski Now the Citizens and Scholars Institute, and it said, you know, apply for this program. If you teach for three years in a high needs district, we'll pay for your degree. And I said, Well, I can do anything for three years. I'll do this while I get all my Ph.D. stuff together. And like day one, I started this program and I'm like, I need to change my whole life course. 00;41;23;21 - 00;41;39;04 Amy Szczepanski I think, like teaching is actually what I want to do. And it was always one of those things. I was like, I'm going to do it for like a few years and then like a few years would go by and I'm like, I'm going to do it for like a couple more and then maybe go get a Ph.D.. 00;41;39;07 - 00;42;05;24 Amy Szczepanski I went as far as applying for a Ph.D. program, getting accepted to a Ph.D. program, and saying, Actually, I'm not going to do the Ph.D., I'm going to keep teaching. So I keep, like I said, getting sucked back into the black hole vortex that is teaching and a very lovely, amazing, great, wonderful black hole. It is. But yeah, I never planned to be here this long and I think I'm stuck. 00;42;05;26 - 00;42;14;06 Michael Holtz But you had just calling back to our earlier part of the conversation. Clarity. I mean, clarity. 00;42;14;09 - 00;42;36;14 Amy Szczepanski I, I still don't know if I have clarity, man. We're we're trying to we're doing it one day at a time, one year. And it's not depending on the gravitational flux of this black hole. You know, maybe we'll end up in a different part of the universe. But it is one day at a time. We're to see where the universe moves me. 00;42;36;17 - 00;43;03;08 Pascale Creek Pinner For me, I always wanted to share my excitement and passion for science. I love science. I love science through high school. I love science through college. I was actually like Amy, I was going to apply to med school and was on my way to do that. And I took a for an elective my senior year of my biology degree, I took that teaching elementary school science class from a professor who I really loved. 00;43;03;10 - 00;43;22;05 Pascale Creek Pinner And at the end of that, she she called me up. She said, I need I need to meet with you. And I was like, no, Dr. Ha’apai How come? And she's like, no, we'll talk about it. She was real gruff, right? I'm like, no, what did I do? So I go to this meeting and she's like, I hear that you're think about, you know, you're going to apply to medical school. 00;43;22;07 - 00;43;42;02 Pascale Creek Pinner And she goes, I don't know why you're doing that. And I went, What? She goes, You need to be a teacher. I mean, if you haven't figured that out yet, you need to be a teacher. And I said, But There she goes, and we have the program. So this is what you should do. And so she very kindly twisted my arm behind my back and said, Just go try this. 00;43;42;04 - 00;44;04;16 Pascale Creek Pinner And then from that moment on, kind of like what Amy said, you know, time moves forward. And I think for me, the impetus to remain in science education has to do with the energy that I get from my kids every year. And honestly, that was the one massive big thing that I missed when I was in D.C. was the energy from my students. 00;44;04;16 - 00;44;30;22 Pascale Creek Pinner But here, here's the irony. The irony was that I had several of them working on science fair research projects. So even though I was in DC, I was in constant communication with them and I ended up presenting two workshops at ICF and of course those two students happened to, of course then be finalists there. So it was really a nice connection back, at least for me, to the energy for my students. 00;44;30;28 - 00;44;49;07 Pascale Creek Pinner But yeah, a professor telling you Hello, you're going the wrong path. You need to go this way, period, and you better do it. And this is how you're going to do well, anyway. Every time I see Dr. Ha'apai, who's still around, she's like, I'm so glad you stayed in education and science education. So there you go. 00;44;49;09 - 00;44;53;25 Michael Holtz And Pascale, I'm hearing that the teaching multitasking never really stops. 00;44;53;28 - 00;45;17;19 Pascale Creek Pinner No, that's not. I mean, now I even have more going on than I probably ever have in my life. I decided to because of Jill. Actually, we had a long conversation about, you know, bringing back what I really wanted to do and what I really, really wanted to do was work with elementary teachers to really beef up their their opportunities to offer science. 00;45;17;26 - 00;45;45;23 Pascale Creek Pinner And COVID actually ended up bringing that all to fruition. Ironically, a very good friend of mine, I made a comment in June of 2020, man, our poor kids, you know, they have nothing and nothing to do. Nobody can go anywhere or whatever. Wouldn't it be great if we could give them like a backpack of science awesomeness? And so my friend happens to be the executive director for a community foundation, calls me the next day and goes, Well, Pascale, could you just make 100 of them? 00;45;45;29 - 00;46;18;17 Pascale Creek Pinner I'm like, What? He goes, Yeah, send hundred bags of awesomeness. I'm like, You're kidding, right? Because, no, I got the funding. So that has worked into envelopes of science awesomeness. And along with teaching science in my classroom, I also work with 54 elementary teachers in grades three through six, and I produce materials and supplies and packets for the students on the envelopes of science awesomeness for about 2100 students here on the east side of Hawaii . 00;46;18;19 - 00;46;40;12 Pascale Creek Pinner I don't think that. Yeah. So I wouldn't that would not have happened. I think if I had not come out of the fellowship with this renewed passion that I started with, which is I want kids to do science, I want kids to enjoy science. And so, yeah, it's still going makes makes me happy every single day. 00;46;40;15 - 00;46;47;26 Kelly Day I love that. And I hope whenever you have a book written about you, the tagline is 100 bags of awesomeness. 00;46;47;28 - 00;46;48;29 Michael Holtz Absolutely! 00;46;49;02 - 00;47;32;16 Gretel von Bargen It's like the teacher story. Pascale of awesomeness. Well, my rise to teaching story is I always loved teaching. I used to play school when I was little girl, and then when I went to college, I learned how much I love science. And when I graduated, I like Pascale and Amy off to try a different path. I was going to go to veterinary school and I was working for a summer as a Park Service ranger and my duties were split half time doing interpretive services and half time doing wildlife management. 00;47;32;18 - 00;48;17;12 Gretel von Bargen And I really loved the interpretive service and I kind of like thought the wildlife part was cool, but I couldn't wait to get back to doing the teaching at the park. And that helped me kind of have an epiphany about maybe I shouldn't just go off to that school just yet and took a year, did a lot of kind of list making and pro/con comparising and thinking about what kind of career path I wanted talking to my boyfriend of the time is now my husband about what I should do and you know my my subconscious knew I wanted to be a teacher but actually coming to that decision was hard. 00;48;17;14 - 00;48;23;07 Gretel von Bargen And then once I decided to be a teacher, there's been no looking back. It's the best decision I've ever made. 00;48;23;10 - 00;48;24;25 Pascale Creek Pinner All in. 00;48;24;27 - 00;48;44;29 Kelly Day It's so fascinating that, like so many of us tried because I thought about going to law school and after undergrad because I didn't think that I would make a good teacher because I didn't. The philosophy that was being taught in my education courses at college, I was like, I don't think I'm going to fit this mold that they want me to be. 00;48;45;02 - 00;49;06;22 Kelly Day And so I was looking at other things and I had other unfortunately heard from teachers like, you're too smart to be a teacher, which is like such an opposite, terrible cultural message that sometimes we're feeding people. But I remember like I was not I was not going to not looking forward to student teaching that I was going to be terrible. 00;49;06;25 - 00;49;25;09 Kelly Day And I went into student teaching and fell in love with this profession like it was almost like I was so frustrated of why like, why couldn't I get out of this major? Like I had tried multiple times to get out and I couldn't. And I almost like I wrestled with with God and I was like, Why did you keep me in? 00;49;25;15 - 00;49;45;21 Kelly Day And he was like, Because I created you to teach. It was the easiest semester of my life. And I'm not saying that teaching is easy by any means. It was natural. It was what I was made to do. And it's so cool and reaffirming to hear the same story. I was like, all of us, like, try to get out and it like, sucks you back in. 00;49;45;21 - 00;50;11;01 Kelly Day And I think that's the story of education. Like the people who are in education, it's because it's just in us, right. We're not doing it for the money or we're not doing it. I mean, like or whatever. I think that's so cool to hear. Thank you. So that black hole vortex, man, I love having you here. And then that's the tagline for your book, Black Hole Vortex. 00;50;11;03 - 00;50;13;15 Kelly Day Right? 00;50;13;18 - 00;50;21;06 Michael Holtz So I'm a teacher considering applying for the AEF, what do you tell me? 00;50;21;09 - 00;50;33;08 Kelly Day Just do it. Say, make your love and passion for learning and kids come through. 00;50;33;10 - 00;51;08;21 Pascale Creek Pinner Yes. Awesome. Spread that you've done and think about it from the audience of people who want to see that passion of you as an educator and want to see that you are not only passionate about education and kids, but you're passionate learning. And I think that that will shine through in the breadth of information that you share. So really try to spread out that wealth people forget, you know, they're like, but it was just this. 00;51;08;21 - 00;51;30;08 Pascale Creek Pinner And I'm thinking, no, it wasn't. That was actually really cool. That was pivotal. You ended up running that class and that workshop and running a whole district wide, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because of that, that was pivotal. That's not little things, you know. So I'm really taking a good look at the breadth of things you've done. 00;51;30;11 - 00;51;39;16 Michael Holtz Awesome. Gretel, I know you have to leave, but so this is my last question for everyone. What brings you joy? 00;51;39;18 - 00;51;56;03 Gretel von Bargen I like to surround myself with living things, and so I my classroom is full of living things, young people who are optimistic and excited and funny. And so that brings me joy. 00;51;56;06 - 00;52;00;28 Michael Holtz Awesome. Thank you so much. Kelly Day, what brings you joy? 00;52;01;05 - 00;52;26;09 Kelly Day People speaking to people brings me joy. So getting to speak to these other Department of Energy fellows is just I'm going to leave this on such a high. I hope that I feel like we've had a wonderful, unique experience getting to be in the office that we got to be in. I would be remiss if we didn't give a shout out to Jan Tyler, who was our mentor, who led us through this project. 00;52;26;10 - 00;52;52;23 Kelly Day Like this whole crazy year experience, some of us beyond it. She really gave us a lot of trust to follow our passions and joy and a lot of freedom. And I couldn't ask for a better mentor and I couldn't. I just like this teach talking to other teachers, empowering other teachers. That's why I think I am so lucky to have landed where I have landed. 00;52;52;25 - 00;52;57;20 Michael Holtz Awesome. Pascale, do you want to try again? What brings you Joy? 00;52;57;23 - 00;53;14;29 Pascale Creek Pinner What I said earlier is as my as my students, which basically are hormones walking on legs, they bring me joy and energy every day. I mean, no matter what naughty or nice, it don't matter. You know, 3 seconds later, they're like, Hi there, are you there? 00;53;15;01 - 00;53;18;20 Michael Holtz There's Amy. What brings you joy? 00;53;18;22 - 00;53;53;29 Amy Szczepanski Finding familiar in the unfamiliar. So I was thinking about all the things that I really love. And I've always been a city person, but one of my favorite things ever is to be walking down a street in a city and be like, That's a sycamore tree. Like I can say the name of that tree or like being in a forest and being like, that's a, you know, whatever and orb weaver spider, like just knowing the names of things in places that are very unfamiliar. 00;53;54;01 - 00;54;09;21 Amy Szczepanski And I think that translates to people as well. One of my favorite things is to be in a large group of people and for someone to get up and make a comment or ask a questions, say, I'm so-and-so. I grew up in Detroit and I'm like, I'm from Detroit too. I want to talk to them about Detroit. 00;54;09;24 - 00;54;27;09 Amy Szczepanski And so those little pillars of like connection and this is something I know. And then also seeing the more I learn as I go through life, the more often those familiar points in the unfamiliar happen. And they're so they're so fun. 00;54;27;11 - 00;54;59;12 Michael Holtz Awesome. I love that. Well, Amy and Pascale and Gretel and Kelly, thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation today. It has been a blast. It has been a joy speaking with all of you and learning about your experiences with Albert Einstein, Distinguished Educator Fellowship Program, and we're going to have more of these conversations. So for folks who are listening, stay tuned because we'll have more fellows on to talk about their experiences. 00;54;59;12 - 00;55;04;03 Michael Holtz So thank you all so much. I really appreciate it. 00;55;04;06 - 00;55;05;24 Pascale Creek Pinner All right. 00;55;05;27 - 00;55;07;03 Kelly Day Thank you. 00;55;07;05 - 00;55;08;14 Michael Holtz Thanks. Have a great day. 00;55;08;20 - 00;55;36;23 Narrator Thank you for listening to the ORISE feature cast. To learn more about the Oak Ridge Institute for Science in Education, visit ORISE.ORAU.gov or find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at ORISE Connect. If you like the ORISE feature cast, give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. The Oak Ridge Institute for Science and Education is managed by ORAU for the U.S. Department of Energy.