- I would not be in my career had it not been for the ORISE Postdoc. We have other ORISE who have been postdocs, who have been post undergraduate, mid-master's, just the range of academic career. And you know, some have used the position to help decide, "Should I go into consulting, should I go into graduate school," and some have made both decisions. I can think of one case where they chose, "No, I think, I don't think National Lab Research is the right place for me. I need to go into the consulting world." And the other thought, "Wow, I really like research. I think I am gonna go ahead and go get my PhD." So it's a really good place to explore your interests, get to know people, get to develop some, a little bit of your own technical and professional network.

- [Announcer] This is the "ORISE Featurecast." Join host Michael Holtz for conversations with ORISE experts on STEM workforce development, scientific and technical reviews, and the evaluation of radiation exposure and environmental contamination. You'll also hear from ORISE research program participants, and their mentors, as they talk about their experiences and how they are helping shape the future of science. Welcome to the "ORISE Featurecast."

- Welcome to another episode of the "ORISE Featurecast." As ever, I'm your host, Michael Holtz, in the Communications and Marketing Department at ORISE. And we are once again talking to and about all things ORISE research program participation. And one of the great former, I believe, research participants, Ale Hakala. Ale, welcome to the "ORISE Featurecast."

- Thank you for the invitation. I'm very happy to be here.

- Tell me a little bit about who you are.

- Well, in my current profession, I'm at the National Energy Technology Laboratory, a environmental geochemist by training, and I'm currently acting as the senior fellow for Geologic and Environmental Systems in our Research and Innovation Center. And so research-wise, my interests are heavily focused on understanding fluid flow and chemistry and natural systems, trying to apply that to different types of problems. And otherwise I have a, we're a family of four, plus two dogs, and I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in the South Hills.

- Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking this time to speak with me today and share a little bit about your story. And I wanna start with, I guess, some big news. You were recently named an Oppenheimer Fellow. Talk about that and what does that mean, for you, for your career, for science in general?

- Right, so it's the Oppenheimer Science and Energy Leadership Program, and it's a program that was started a few years ago at DOE headquarters, along with the National Lab Director Council, to help foster and cultivate common knowledge, collaboration, and connections across the National Lab complex. So out of the 17 National Labs, my understanding is the goal to have representatives from each lab participate, from different parts of the lab. So even though I'm representing onsite research at NETL, there are also operations directors from other labs, finance, all areas of the different labs, and how they need to operate and function to help serve the DOE mission. So from my exposure so far, we only kicked off in January here in 2023, we had a kickoff with all of the participants in Ames, Iowa, at Ames National Laboratory. And it was a pretty intense week of learning about the program, learning about Ames National Lab, getting to know the program participants, and we're gonna be developing think pieces throughout the year, around topics that are of interest for the National Labs, and that also can help the Department of Energy. So it's gonna be a really interesting year and getting to learn all of that and participate.

- Awesome, it sounds like a great program and a great, I guess, collaborative effort to sort of bring folks together from all of the National Labs to work together, you know, as you said on these think pieces and on issues that are relevant to the agency.

- Definitely.

- So, I'm speaking to you because you were a former ORISE research program participant at NETL, but I wanted to go back even further than that and ask you, has science always been a thing for Ale Hakala? How did you foster your interest in all things science?

- Well, I've always had an interest in nature and being outside. When I was a kid, my parents always kicked my brothers and and me outside. And really really enjoyed observing nature and being, you know, going on hikes, playing outside, all of those things. I also had some of, an interest in chemistry. I remember playing with the equivalent of the chemistry kits you see now for kids, and mixing my different potions and things, when I was, you know, eight, nine years old.

- Right.

- When I lived, we lived in Florida for a period of time when I was growing up, and so I spent a lot of time outside fishing in the canals. We spent a lot of time going to the Everglades, also to the coast. And I became really fascinated with the differences across the different types of geographic locations, and then the ecology and some of the, I guess I didn't know at the time it was called geology, but some of the differences in those aspects of the natural system. And it continued. At another point we lived in Santiago, Chile, and so I was really nicely exposed to some exciting geology living in South America.

- Very cool.

- And although I always had this interest in nature and earth science, I guess I, even though it wasn't termed that. I didn't really think of it as that at the time. I ended up wanting to focus more on politics and environmental policy when I started in college.

- Okay.

- But took a class that showed me how you could apply your interests in science and geology and the natural systems towards helping make decisions. And so I, that's where I switched over. I became involved in undergraduate research, which then spilled into going into PhD research, and then I just have kind of continued with research as part of the career. So it wasn't an intentional process. It just kind of evolved.

- It just sorta happened.

- Yeah, well, there was the work involved, but it was-

- Sure.

- I didn't start out when I was younger thinking, "This is what I'm gonna end up-"

- "This is what I wanna do," right.

- Yeah, so it's interesting seeing where I've gotten to.

- That's a, it's a great trajectory to, you know, sort of as you say, get to where you've gotten to. And I have to imagine that along the way, there were some mentors who helped guide you in the process. So talk about who some of those folks might be, and you know, how they helped guide your career.

- Absolutely, well, in undergraduate, a major mentor was my undergraduate advisor, Satish Myneni. He's in the Geosciences and Civil and Environmental Engineering Departments at Princeton University. And he saw my interest in geochemistry. And even though I was coming into the field, I hadn't really done much science in my first two years in college, just because I did a lot with the AP exams in high school and International Baccalaureate. So I figured, "Oh, my credits are are done, I can move on." But trying to get back into it after two years of not really thinking that way was a little bit of a challenge. And so he really helped me get through some of that hump and really helped foster a lot of the interest and discipline towards understanding geochemistry. And he also taught me how to write technical papers, which was a painful process. I remember writing my senior thesis, and every time I submitted a version, it came back completely marked up. So it was a lot of effort, I think, on his part to help guide me, but I really appreciate it because it ended up taking me to Ohio State, where I, actually he had gone to Ohio State for his PhD, and I ended up working with Yo Chin, who, in the School of Earth Sciences there, who is a fantastic advisor. We still stay in touch. His daughters were in our wedding, like the whole, comprehensive mentorship from Yo, and he continued to help me and guide me in the process of becoming a researcher. And then coming to the National Energy Technology Laboratory, I've had a couple of great mentors, George Guthrie, Grant Bromhal, and then a few others along the way. So it's always having somebody to be able to bounce ideas off of, and also understanding that any criticism or feedback that comes back is intended to help me grow, has been helpful. And so it's not like you can have that with everybody, but having some of those trusted mentors where I understand that their feedback is coming from a place of, an intent at helping me in my career. It's been really amazing, and I feel very fortunate for that. But some of it's also seeking it out and making sure you always have somebody like that to be able to bounce ideas off of and get some advice from.

- And that seems like a really important, that last thing you said, seems like a really important point is to find those people, you know, who can give you that feedback in a nurturing way, in a way that helps foster your interests, foster your career, but isn't criticism for the sake of criticism. And it's, on the one hand, it's the mentor's responsibility, but it's also the mentee's responsibility to find those people, seek out those people, so that maybe you don't flame out or you don't get overwhelmed by the criticism, the feedback. 'Cause I'm sure you know, not everyone takes feedback well, right, so-

- Or it's also the delivery of feedback too.

- Right, yes.

- And so that's also very important, and it's also taught me a lot. You know, it's, even though, I don't know if you call this an official mentorship, but also having a really strong network of colleagues who've also become close friends in some cases is, has also been really important, and having that, you have, it's more of the person more than an authority looking up as a mentor, and then also having your colleague mentor network, where it's, "I'm dealing with a problem. How do you deal with this problem," or, you know, those types of things.

- The collaboration, the peer network, all of those things-

- Mm-hmm.

- Become really important to helping you move forward, but also helping each other solve problems and handle situations as they arise, right?

- Absolutely.

- You started at NETLs and ORISE, program participant, right? So what was that experience? How did the ORISE experience help shape your career? I mean, I know you're still at NETL, so obviously it was a positive.

- Worked out, yeah, it was interesting. So I mean, it was a big switch for me, going in into the field that I started in, or as postdoc. My PhD research had been focused on pesticides and temperate wetlands. So I studied pesticide degradation in a wetlands feeding into Lake Erie. And when I was looking for postdoctoral positions, in part, I ended up in Pittsburgh because of my husband's job. And so I was looking for different research opportunities once we moved here, and found out about this ORISE position. It actually had been advertised to a colleague of mine at Ohio State, who then sent it to me, said, "Hey I know you're in Pittsburgh. "You might wanna check this out." And it was a little odd because it was on oil shale. And I'm like, "Well, I don't really study oil shales. I had never really studied hydrocarbons. I don't even know what an NETL is," and decided to do a little bit of research on that. But then I decided, well, those are really old wetlands that have been compacted over time geologically. And so I, you know, has similar chemical principles, so I can at least start from there. And it was really interesting getting into the postdoc, because looking at, how do we produce energy while also being responsible environmentally, is a huge component of all the different resources we have to access for energy. And so it was really, it was interesting to apply my environmental knowledge, and then also pick up a lot of the knowledge about oil and gas, and then also geologic carbon storage, getting into the postdoc. So it just, it seemed to have enough components that piqued my interest. So I was able to work on enough different topics as an ORISE Postdoc. And I had the main project that brought me in, but then as I became integrated more with the different research teams at the lab, I was able to branch out and work on different projects, and then a federal position became open that I applied for, and landed me on the path where I am now.

- That's awesome, so I always love those ORISE research participation programs, success stories, because, I mean, obviously you're still part of the federal scientific workforce, doing important work. Talk a little bit, on the subject of important work, talk a little bit about what it is specifically that you're doing today as part of NETL.

- Yeah, so what I'm doing today, it's sometimes a little challenging to describe, but it's, I'm helping pull all the different pieces together to help make sure that our research teams are in the best position to address the DOE mission space.

- Okay.

- And so, it's a little bit of understanding what's happening in terms of the DOE mission, where the lab mission is also focused, and making sure that we're focusing on the topics and going after the different areas of opportunity that makes sense for our lab, considering our capabilities and our history, and our current knowledge base. And so, we have a amazing team of researchers in the Research and Innovation Center. So I primarily work with the Geologic and Environmental Systems groups. However, we also have teams across multiple other disciplines at the lab. And so we try to pull in, you know, for example our computational science teams or our systems analysis teams, or our materials science teams, or our process engineering teams, as appropriate. And it's helping to understand what's out there externally that we need to be keeping an eye on, in terms of making sure we're applying our capabilities in the best way, but then also helping get the right teams together within the lab, and developing strategic relationships with other groups. You know, we may not have a capability at the lab, but if we pulled in another National Lab or a university, for example, to help help with the team, we could pull together a project and answer some important questions together. So it's pretty fun in that aspect. Oh, and what's really nice is I'm learning a lot about a lot of different topical areas. So it's taking me out of my, what previously was a pretty focused area of subsurface geochemistry and reservoirs, to now thinking about critical minerals and also wellbore cements and well plugging, and it's a whole range of topics. So it's pretty exciting.

- That is exciting, and seems with all of the conversation around climate change, and just everything related to protecting the environment, very timely and important issues as well.

- [Ale] Mm-hmm.

- I was doing a little bit of reading about you, and I saw that diversity is a very important issue for you personally. I mean, obviously, you're a woman in STEM, so there's that aspect, but why for you personally is diversity an important issue?

- There are so many times where I have been going along a particular train of thinking, thinking I knew all the pieces, thinking I knew exactly what was going on. And then somebody from a completely different background, either technically or personally, came up with an idea that ended up, I mean, it's happened multiple times, over the course of my career. And so I think having the diversity of technical background, and also diversity of personal background brings different perspectives, and allows the group to think differently than if you have all the same background or all the same technical training. And so that's where I think the diversity is pretty important to being able to, when you're thinking about really big problems, you want to have a lot of different types of thinking, because you never know which combination of ideas or which thread might help actually answer the important, the difficult question, so.

- Right, right, is there a specific example of that, that you can, maybe can share, of?

- Oh, trying to think. I don't know if I have a specific example right now. I mean, I guess one example I can use is, I actually had an ORISE postdoc, Ty Phan, who came, he's originally from Vietnam, but primarily did his graduate research in Canada, and then came to Pittsburgh to work on isotope geochemistry. And there were multiple times where I think just based on his academic training and then also how he approached life just because of who he was as a person, really brought me new perspective, on how to approach a problem or how to approach a question. And what I also appreciated is that it's almost like he reverse mentored me sometimes. And in terms of I would be going down a pathway and he'd say, "Well, you may wanna consider this, because in my experience, this is something I've seen with," you know, with whatever pathway I was going down with the isotope chemistry project. And so it's not that, you know, someone exactly like me maybe wouldn't have thought of the same thing. But I think because of his diversity of experience, combined with what we were trying to do on the project, it just helped us get to a much better place with the research than I think would've happened if it had just been me thinking about it, or someone exactly like me.

- Awesome, thank you for sharing that. And that leads me to my next question, which I meant to ask when you talked about mentors, but where you've had the opportunity, obviously then, to mentor other scientists, including the young man you just spoke about, how has that been for you, serving as a mentor for others?

- It's been a learning experience. It's interesting seeing the different types of personalities that come through for mentorship, different levels of experience in terms of running a project, or technical background. And the most important thing I've learned is paying attention to what I've appreciated in mentorship, is people taking the time to spend time with me, being very open and clear about things. And I found that the most productive experiences I think, for both the mentee and then me as a mentor have been when I've been able to focus and dedicate time. And so it's actually helped me understand what's an appropriate number of mentees to be working with at any given time, if there are technical opportunities, can we get some additional mentors involved, just to make sure, the time investment and the communication, I think, is so important with mentorship. And that's been the biggest, I guess, lesson I learned over mentoring over the past few years.

- Okay, great. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you wanna make sure that we talk about?

- Let me think. I think something, I mean, if this podcast is geared towards people considering ORISE or thinking about the impact of ORISE, I have found the experience to be very, very just, what's the right word? Just awesome overall, the postdoc. I would not be in my career had it not been for the ORISE Postdoc. We have other ORISE who have been postdocs, who have been post-undergraduate, mid-master's, just the range of academic career. And you know, some have used the position to help decide, "Should I go into consulting? Should I go into graduate school?" And some have made both decisions. I can think of one case where they chose, "No, I don't think National Lab Research is the right place for me. I need to go into the consulting world." And the other thought, "Wow, I really like research. I think I am gonna go ahead and go get my PhD." So it's a really good place to explore your interests, get to know people, get to develop some, a little bit of your own technical and professional network. And in most cases, a good experience will land you with a really strong set of peers that will help guide you throughout your whole career, which it's done for me, so.

- Awesome, so I'm sure it's highly recommended.

- Highly recommended, yeah.

- ORISE experiences, last question for you, Ale? What brings you joy?

- What brings me joy, hmm.

- And it can be any facet of life. It doesn't have to be science.

- Yeah, I mean, since it's the morning and I just had a cup of really delicious coffee and an excellent breakfast, I can say that's it. I mean, yesterday I was spending a wonderful time with my family. You know, at other times it's discovering something new in the lab. So I think it's wherever I can focus on the positive, I guess.

- Awesome, I love that answer. So something different every day.

- It does, it shifts every day.

- Awesome, well, Ale Hakala, thank you so much-

- Yes, thank you.

- For spending this time with me. I really appreciate getting the opportunity to know you, and can't wait to share your story with our audience.

- Thank you again, Michael. Thanks for the interview.

- Thank you, have a great day.

- You too.

- [Announcer] Thank you for listening to the "ORISE Featurecast. To learn more about the Oak Ridge Institute for Science and Education, visit orise.orau.gov, or find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, @ORISECONNECT. If you like the "ORISE Featurecast," give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. The Oak Ridge Institute for.